Transcript for #hcmsanz chat – 13 February 2011

Wordle: #hcsmanz chat - 13 February 2011

NOTE: All times are listed using Pacific Standard Time (PST) GMT-08:00 

9:01 am hcsmanz: Welcome to tonight’s #hcsmanz chat. Tonight’s topic is “”patients, healthcare professionals and Googling symptoms”
9:03 am JanelleBowden: Hey everyone, finally made it when a chat was on! Me–> A clinical researcher, interested in technology, hc&sm & learning from you #hcsmanz
9:03 am ej_butler: #hcsmanz I’m a healthcare IT professional based in Brisbane
9:03 am fidouglas: Hello @ej_butler. Thanks for moderating. πŸ™‚ Who else is here this evening? #hcsm #hcsmanz
9:03 am Zimbarama: Kia Ora all, looking forward to todays chat #hcsmanz
9:03 am ej_butler: @JanelleBowden welcome πŸ˜€ #hcsmanz
9:05 am ej_butler: @fidouglas seen @JanelleBowden and @Zimbarama so far… #hcsmanz
9:05 am BiteTheDust: g’da Robbo pharmacist central australia #hcsmanz will be in and out this evening as have a couple of guests
9:07 am ej_butler: Recent research reports that 4 in 5 Australians are using the Internet to search for health information #hcsmanz
9:07 am hiablog: Hi all. I’m Ben, a public health researcher from Sydney #hcsmanz
9:10 am fidouglas: Hi all. Fi here, I’m a British med student, but I’m doing health psychology research in NZ at the mo. #hcsmanz
9:10 am JanelleBowden: @ej_butler Do you have age demographics on those Aus stats? and what they are searching for? #hcsmanz
9:10 am Zimbarama: @ej_butler I wonder if people search for info before they go to the doctor or after? #hcsmanz
9:11 am fidouglas: I think Google is useful in empowering patients, but we need to be careful that knowledge obtained is accurate and unbiased. #hcsmanz
9:11 am hiablog: @ej_butler Rings true with my experience. Health professionals should probably assume almost all patients have sought information. #hcsmanz
9:11 am ej_butler: @JanelleBowden Here’s one of the recent articles http://bit.ly/hjdlvo #hcsmanz
9:12 am ej_butler: @Zimbarama I would think before seeing a doctor? #hcsmanz
9:12 am GPAG2011: #hcsmanz hi all – Jason here, from a GP Network.
9:13 am ej_butler: @fidouglas but it’s not just Google that people are using… there are now Apps available too. Is HONcode a good measure of worth? #hcsmanz
9:13 am BiteTheDust: or any other health professional. pharmacists get it all the time RT @ej_butler: @Zimbarama I would think before seeing a doctor? #hcsmanz
9:14 am hiablog: Challenges notion of authority role/power in clinical relationships – but that could be useful. #hcsmanz
9:14 am JanelleBowden: Depends on reason for going to dr. If prescribed new med for current condition google after. If new symptoms, google before? #hcsmanz
9:14 am ej_butler: @GPAG2011 glad you could make it πŸ™‚ #hcsmanz
9:14 am Zimbarama: @ej_butler but one would also assume that after seeing the doctor they would search in more depth #hcsmanz
9:14 am BiteTheDust: like how docs warn “catastrophic consequences” It depends on how the info is used and clarification given by health professionals #hcsmanz
9:15 am ernchang: Hi all, I’m Ern, GP in regional VIC, heavily reliant on the web for up to date info. Connected to Twitter while at work weekdays. #hcsmanz
9:15 am JanelleBowden: @ej_butler Another chat I attended recently suggested HONCode was losing its value. #hcsmanz
9:15 am fidouglas: @ej_butler Not heard of that before, just reading about it now. Would patients have heard of it? Would they know to look for it? #hcsmanz
9:16 am BiteTheDust: 80% use net for health and 70% for info on medicines. Could argue health profs arent giving enough info out in an acceptable way #hcsmanz
9:16 am BiteTheDust: welcome @ernchang #hcsmanz
9:17 am fidouglas: Surely there can be conflicts between the patient’s actual doctor, and what Dr. Google says. How would drs go about resolving this? #hcsmanz
9:18 am Zimbarama: @BiteTheDust you could argue that, or you could argue that they give the info in a way that patients dont fully understand? #hcsmanz
9:19 am ricardon: SA based Radiologist: see “Patients Google their symptoms, #doctors need to deal with it”:http://bit.ly/dVTSW9 #hcsmanz
9:19 am BiteTheDust: @Zimbarama I’d go for both. we think we often are giving info in a good way #hcsmanz
9:19 am ej_butler: @fidouglas Interesting, HONcode has been around since the late ’90’s (at least) #hcsmanz
9:20 am hiablog: We need to reconceptualise relationship – now a “”triangulation” of patient-Web-physician”http://bit.ly/fs14Jo #hcsmanz
9:21 am BiteTheDust: @ej_butler the article you posted again is all defensive look at the internet for health and you’ll die sort of stuff #hcsmanz
9:21 am ej_butler: @ernchang Thanks for joining the chat Ern πŸ™‚ #hcsmanz
9:22 am ej_butler: @BiteTheDust ah yes, that’s right I posted the alarmist article… this article http://bit.ly/hquiXO appeared in TIME Magazine #hcsmanz
9:23 am ej_butler: @JanelleBowden So what’s coming along to replace HONcode? #hcsmanz
9:23 am Zimbarama: @BiteTheDust have you seen this TED video?http://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_goetz_it_s_time_to_redesign_medical_data.html #hcsmanz
9:24 am JanelleBowden: Does the fact that pts google health problems help them brace for potential bad news from dr? Any Drs here experienced that? #hcsmanz
9:24 am ej_butler: RT @medicalaxioms In my daily practice pubmed and google are battling it out for the job of diagnosing the unfamiliar #hcsmanz
9:25 am JanelleBowden: @ej_butler Not sure there is anything else to replace it. The prob is the explosion of apps and websites can’t be kept up with… #hcsmanz
9:25 am ej_butler: @Zimbarama @BiteTheDust Yes, tweeted about it here – http://bit.ly/dKm1nC Really impressed with it. #hcsmanz
9:25 am ricardon: #Doctors differ – including “Dr Google” : http://bit.ly/i1yWu0 (1878 Punch #cartoon referring to Disraeli and Gladstone) #hcsmanz
9:26 am JanelleBowden: @ej_butler …and, who has the authority to “approve” sites for every country? #hcsmanz
9:27 am BiteTheDust: is a bigger part of this a lack of trust, or don’t want to disturb busy health professionals especially in time ltd appts? #hcsmanz
9:27 am ladyfran: DrNet certainly has a place; however,it’s ‘just the facts maam’ type info. There’s no context within the patient’s own circumstance #hcsmanz
9:27 am Zimbarama: @ej_butler @medicalaxioms but do patients even look at pubmed? or is that where providers and scholars go? #hcsmanz
9:28 am fidouglas: @ej_butler I’m a bit new to the whole healthcare/social media/internet thing, perhaps why. Also, maybe not as prevalent in UK? #hcsmanz
9:28 am ej_butler: @JanelleBowden What about making the most use of a short appointment? Our GP’s are stretched most of the time… #hcsmanz
9:29 am ej_butler: @Zimbarama think you’d only look at pubmed if you’ve got inside knowledge? Might be different in US /cc @medicalaxioms #hcsmanz
9:29 am hiablog: Why view this as some “outside other”? Why not Google info with patient, together. I know time is a constraint but could be useful. #hcsmanz
9:30 am ej_butler: @ladyfran certainly don’t think it can be used in isolation without some sort of discussion with a healthcare professional #hcsmanz
9:30 am JanelleBowden: Heard that RT @dr1337: @ej_butler @janellebowden There were rumblings of the FDA requiring approval for non-device medical apps… #hcsmanz
9:30 am JanelleBowden: @dr1337 FDA doesn’t rule over everyone. They only have true authority in US. #hcsmanz
9:32 am JanelleBowden: @ej_butler The true problem is the length of GP appointments, whether or not Dr Google involved. #hcsmanz
9:32 am ej_butler: @fidouglas think it’s important to educate people on how to be able to search for trust-worthy sources on the Internet #hcsmanz
9:33 am BiteTheDust: @JanelleBowden ancillary staff can provide info. Pharmacy has been doing it for years with resources but no fee so time is an issue #hcsmanz
9:33 am JanelleBowden: @ej_butler So how do you teach people about finding safe info? #hcsmanz
9:33 am fidouglas: The problem is, so much online “knowledge” is rubbish. For any given symptom, Dr. Google can give you whatever dx you want. #hcsmanz
9:33 am ernchang: @hiablog I do this several times a day with patients. They appreciate it and having an immediate “2nd opinion” is reassuring too. #hcsmanz
9:33 am ej_butler: @JanelleBowden True, I don’t think that the length of appointments is going to change any time soon as it’s governed by Medicare #hcsmanz
9:34 am BiteTheDust: @ernchang I don’t think many docs or others do that with patients though? #hcsmanz
9:34 am dr1337: @JanelleBowden Yeah but they’re also a huge market and major source of income. #hcsmanz
9:34 am drmarcustan: Hi guys sorry late to the party! I’m a Medico interested in health IT & innovation from Perth #hcsmanz
9:34 am JanelleBowden: @ej_butler Not with an exploding baby boomers senior population #hcsmanz
9:34 am BiteTheDust: @ernchang I know pharmacists performing HMRs at peoples homes are seeing and aksed more or finding Tx altered on basis of webinfo #hcsmanz
9:34 am fidouglas: @ej_butler Absolutely. But even “reputable” sources can’t be trusted e.g. websites being owned by Pharma companies. #hcsmanz
9:35 am dr1337: Believe it or not, I actually love wrongdiagnosis.com as a resource #hcsmanz
9:35 am ej_butler: @JanelleBowden back in the day I learnt this at university… was being taught in highschool more recently? #hcsmanz
9:36 am hiablog: @ernchang I think it’s a good practice. You’re also tacitly informing them about what sources you trust online. #hcsmanz
9:36 am ej_butler: @fidouglas yes, but there’s likely to only be a small percentage of cybercondriacs around? #hcsmanz
9:36 am drmarcustan: Consultation times can restrict how much info you can give. I have printed articles for patients after “Googling” stuff myself #hcsmanz
9:36 am JanelleBowden: @fidouglas I think that’s a littl harsh abt pharma co websites… Handle with care, but they oft have some good info too. #hcsmanz
9:36 am ej_butler: @JanelleBowden U3A might? #hcsmanz
9:37 am JanelleBowden: Huh? RT @ej_butler: @JanelleBowden U3A might? #hcsmanz
9:37 am Zimbarama: I think this is where SM and online Social Networks come into play, through perceived trust via social capital #hcsmanz
9:37 am hiablog: @ej_butler @fidouglas But what if it *is* Lyme disease? πŸ˜‰ #hcsmanz
9:37 am Zimbarama: members in the network can obtain information about sites form people they trust hence the info they give must be good information #hcsmanz
9:37 am fidouglas: @JanelleBowden But they also have a financial incentive to push drugs. Especially easy to do with psych problems e.g. dep/anx #hcsmanz
9:37 am ej_butler: @fidouglas This came up recently in the NYTimes comparing WebMD to Mayo Clinic #hcsmanz
9:38 am dr1337: Actually, some web information can be more useful and accurate than any medical textbook.http://t.co/p76Vgu1 is a perfect example #hcsmanz
9:38 am drmarcustan: I hv definitely had patients come in with their printouts of net research on what they think they hv but not common #hcsmanz
9:38 am fidouglas: @ej_butler Not so much hypochondriacs, as worried well. #hcsmanz
9:38 am ej_butler: @fidouglas Will have a dig around for the article… #hcsmanz
9:38 am hiablog: @JanelleBowden @fidouglas Pharma sites seem particularly tricky to me. Anyone seen anything on use/recommentation of those sites? #hcsmanz
9:39 am ej_butler: RT @dr1337: Believe it or not, I actually love wrongdiagnosis.com as a resource #hcsmanz
9:40 am ej_butler: @JanelleBowden U3A is University of the Third Age http://www3.griffith.edu.au/03/u3a/ #hcsmanz
9:41 am hiablog: RT @dr1337: Believe it or not, I actually love wrongdiagnosis.com as a resource #hcsmanz
9:41 am ben_hr: RT @dr1337: Believe it or not, I actually love wrongdiagnosis.com as a resource #hcsmanz
9:41 am ej_butler: @dr1337 online resources will more than likely be more up-to-date than books. Does everyone read every article in journals? #hcsmanz
9:41 am JanelleBowden: @hiablog #fidouglas My advice is the same whether a pharma, patient community, hospital, etc site: never trust one source of info. #hcsmanz
9:42 am ernchang: @BiteTheDust Info from the right web sources can be so much more up to date and relevant than offline resources #hcsmanz
9:42 am hcsmanz: @fidouglas That picks up on the notion of the digital divide as well. Is that a consideration as well? @ej_butler #hcsmanz
9:43 am mikichoo: RT @dr1337: Believe it or not, I actually love wrongdiagnosis.com as a resource #hcsmanz
9:43 am ej_butler: @hiablog @JanelleBowden @fidouglas There are some good Australian public health resource websites – http://bit.ly/anuUge is one #hcsmanz
9:43 am BiteTheDust: @ernchang yes and I use it all the time but we have training in our courses to disseminate research/info to determine good/bad #hcsmanz
9:44 am drmarcustan: @hiablog @JanelleBowden @fidouglas rightly or wrongly pharma sponsored sites are viewed with less trust by clinicians IMHO #hcsmanz
9:44 am dr1337: @ej_butler What I meant was http://t.co/p76Vgu1 might actually be more scientific that what is taught and practiced #hcsmanz
9:45 am ej_butler: RT @JanelleBowden: My advice is the same whether a pharma, patient community, hospital, etc site: never trust one source of info. #hcsmanz
9:45 am fidouglas: @ej_butler @hiablog @JanelleBowden That site looks good, and good websites do exist. But there are also some really bad ones. #hcsmanz
9:46 am fidouglas: @drmarcustan @hiablog @JanelleBowden Rightly so, IMO. The potential for financial gains means that info cannot be impartial. #hcsmanz
9:46 am ernchang: @dr1337 I find myself pointing my med students to online resources v frequently. They may not know where to start looking sometimes #hcsmanz
9:46 am dr1337: The solution is to have better health literacy #hcsmanz
9:47 am dr1337: Many Australians don’t know about Cochrane Systematic Reviews or that we have free access to it courtesy of the government #hcsmanz
9:47 am ej_butler: @dr1337 Have some info on PatientsLikeMe to share but need to find links :S #hcsmanz
9:48 am JanelleBowden: @dr1337 Do you think Cochrane reviews are general-public friendly? #hcsmanz
9:49 am hiablog: RT @JanelleBowden: @hiablog #fidouglas My advice is the same whether a pharma, patient community, hospital, etc site: never trust one source of info. #hcsmanz
9:49 am ej_butler: OrganizedWidom http://organizedwisdom.com is a US based site where health experts and doctors can provide credible resources #hcsmanz
9:49 am dr1337: @JanelleBowden It actually is at the heart of the problem. How many patients can distinguish .com from .gov? #hcsmanz
9:50 am ej_butler: Agree > RT @dr1337: The solution is to have better health literacy #hcsmanz
9:50 am dr1337: @JanelleBowden Yes. All Cochrane reviews must have a plain-language summary #hcsmanz
9:50 am ej_butler: So with 10 minutes to go… #hcsmanz
9:51 am ej_butler: Consensus is… patients searching for info is not a bad thing? #hcsmanz
9:51 am drmarcustan: Patients empowered to ask more informed questions 2 explore their diagnosis or care options is crucial. It’s more than a timesaver! #hcsmanz
9:52 am ej_butler: Better health literacy and access to credible information important #hcsmanz
9:52 am BiteTheDust: RT @drmarcustan: Patients empowered to ask more informed questions 2 explore their diagnosis or care options is crucial. It’s more than a timesaver! #hcsmanz
9:52 am JanelleBowden: Agree – not a bad thing RT @ej_butler: Consensus is… patients searching for info is not a bad thing? #hcsmanz
9:52 am hiablog: @dr1337 @JanelleBowden Problem is that many Cochrane Reviews are non sequiturs . “More research req” etc. Also lag practice. #hcsmanz
9:53 am goldenskye: What’s more, it’s a good thing! RT @ej_butler: Consensus is… patients searching for info is not a bad thing? #hcsmanz
9:53 am ej_butler: RT @drmarcustan: Patients empowered to ask more informed questions 2 explore their diagnosis or care options is crucial. It’s more than a timesaver! #hcsmanz
9:53 am hiablog: Not bad at all. Lots of potential. RT @ej_butler: Consensus is… patients searching for info is not a bad thing? #hcsmanz
9:53 am fidouglas: @ej_butler Fundamentally, no. The quality of the info they find is the key issue. #hcsmanz
9:53 am ej_butler: @drmarcustan a good point… often patients not as comfortable with this as they should be? #hcsmanz
9:54 am JanelleBowden: We like to believe our Drs are Gods, but they can’t possibly know and think of everything. Pts googling can keep Drs sharp I think #hcsmanz
9:54 am drmarcustan: The patient clinician relationship has evolved from the paternalism of the past to a partnership or at least it should have. #hcsmanz
9:54 am hiablog: @JanelleBowden @ej_butler Fears about “quality of info” often as much fear about changing role of clinicians. #hcsmanz
9:55 am Zimbarama: sorry not very active today, busy evening over here #hcsmanz
9:55 am goldenskye: @drmarcustan @ej_butler Patients anticipate negative response from health professionals, so may not “admit” to online research. #hcsmanz
9:55 am JanelleBowden: @drmarcustan Depends how ‘evolved’ the Dr is (no offence to the evolved Drs participating in this chat) #hcsmanz
9:55 am Zimbarama: @drmarcustan totally agree with that, this is why we are seeing more open conversations with dr and patient #hcsmanz
9:56 am ej_butler: @BiteTheDust @drmarcustan I think that’s the first time I heard the term “empowered patient” in Australia πŸ˜€ #hcsmanz
9:56 am Zimbarama: RT @JanelleBowden: We like to believe our Drs are Gods, bt they cant possibly knw think of everything.Pts googling cn kp Drs sharp #hcsmanz
9:57 am ricardon: how to stop Doctors ordering unnecessary tests? (often a substitute for thorough consultation & physical examination): Path &XRays #hcsmanz
9:58 am drmarcustan: I find it encouraging that pts are taking more ownership of their health. Docs are there to help filter out reality from theory #hcsmanz
9:59 am Zimbarama: @JanelleBowden i think the newer generation of drs are evolving to embrace technology it might be the old guard tht find it hard #hcsmanz
10:01 am ej_butler: It’s amazing how quickly the hour of #hcsmanz chat flys by! #hcsmanz
10:01 am hiablog: @ej_butler @BiteTheDust @drmarcustan I hear it all the time. All. The. Time. ; ) #hcsmanz
10:02 am dr1337: @hiablog @janellebowden Yes, that’s true. But I guess that’s the tradeoff for Cochrane reviews being the gold standard in EBM #hcsmanz
10:02 am drmarcustan: @JanelleBowden not sure being god-like is a mantle many docs aspire to nowadays. We are human and have limitations and are fallible #hcsmanz
10:02 am ej_butler: @Zimbarama change in any organisation is difficult irrespective of old or new guard #hcsmanz
10:02 am Zimbarama: @ej_butler times flys when you having fun πŸ˜‰ #hcsmanz
10:03 am hcsmanz: That’s an hour! Thanks for your contributions. Please keep chatting but we’ll bring things to a formal close. Final thoughts? #hcsmanz ^BHR
10:04 am Zimbarama: @ej_butler i agree, but the old guard make it hard to embrace change, traditional vs disruptive thinking #hcsmanz
10:04 am ej_butler: Thank you everyone for your time tonight. There’ll be a blog post and tweet later with the transcript #hcsmanz
10:05 am JanelleBowden: Final thought: So much to benefit from by having empowered patients. Let them google, & help them understand what they’ve found. #hcsmanz
10:05 am JanelleBowden: Fun chat tonight. Thanks @ej_butler for moderating, and to all the #hcsmanz tweeps. Have a great week everyone.
10:06 am Zimbarama: it is inevitable that patients will consult Google,providers must b aware & prepared for this maybe even use this to engage with pt #hcsmanz
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